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Rabbithole and comments

 
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boblam
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註冊時間: 2007-05-04
文章: 294

發表發表於: 星期一 六月 04, 2012 9:04 pm    文章主題: Rabbithole and comments 引言回覆

I took the liberty of moving Boris' comment from the appreciation thread on "Fresh get outstanding scores from coffeereview!" as Boris and I agree that the posted comment is out of topics over there.

For background of this conversation, please read the post below of this particular food blogger. For ease of the use, I copy the comment below. You can find the original post here at this link, http://www.e-tingfood.com/2012/04/coffee-in-hong-kong-class-at-rabbithole.html?showComment=1335734670467#c5366738853068134510
引言回覆:
HK Epicurus said...

Honestly speaking, Rabbithole might be all fun and engaging, but they are not really up to standards.

I have my own reason to have come to this conclusion. Example 1, saying that Siphoning is the be-all-and-end-all hardest to grasp is already too bold a statement. And if they do think that coffee lots and roasting are 90% of the equation, may be they ought to get their roasting right themselves. Some of their Single Origin estate beans are not that representative and loyal to their Farms and Terroir as yet in the taste even when using their best grinder on sight and Synesso machine, or via the Siphon.

Not helped by the fact they keep insisting on naming one of their beans Operation Red Cherry, when it should read as Operation Cherry Red "OCR". This place is one of the pretenders with the most promise but isn't really delivering it. Sorry if I have to disagree so much this time around. Knockbox guys are a few notches above here, at least they have trained palates drinking enough from the UK and Tokyo! Razz
5:24 AM
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boblam
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註冊時間: 2007-05-04
文章: 294

發表發表於: 星期一 六月 04, 2012 9:06 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

Boris' comment is here

boris 寫到:
Bob, sorry for being out of topic (again!) As you know, that foodie blogger is my friend, and we have debates on coffee (the only topic that I sometimes know a tiny bit more than him!) from time to time. I don't entirely agree on his comments about RH, but I certainly understand where his view comes from. I feel Shing gor style espresso (Automatic PP (or Flow Profile?) with naked double basket) used by RH and KB are extremely delicious, but different beans pulled like this has a similar taste structure (to me at least) - That could be the reason why HKE said about the terroir taste thing. (As for as I know coffee review does not have Shing's beautiful invention so the espresso was pulled in a more traditional way?) On the other hand I'm not afraid to say hand drip in RH need some work - yes like he says I don't taste much terroir in the hand drip coffee either. Was it the roast, the beans itself, the method of dripping, or a combination of some/all of above? I'm not professional enough so I've told Mike himself my comment and let the professionals do their jobs. Blaming directly on the roast may not be right, but I think HK has a point regarding the coffee itself.

Oh and the Brazil like Yrgecheffe that HK talked about wasn't referring RH / those roasted by Shing - I had that too and was wowed by the (lack of) favor!
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boblam
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註冊時間: 2007-05-04
文章: 294

發表發表於: 星期一 六月 04, 2012 9:31 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

boblam 寫到:
Boris' comment is here

boris 寫到:
Bob, sorry for being out of topic (again!) As you know, that foodie blogger is my friend, and we have debates on coffee (the only topic that I sometimes know a tiny bit more than him!) from time to time. I don't entirely agree on his comments about RH, but I certainly understand where his view comes from. I feel Shing gor style espresso (Automatic PP (or Flow Profile?) with naked double basket) used by RH and KB are extremely delicious, but different beans pulled like this has a similar taste structure (to me at least) - That could be the reason why HKE said about the terroir taste thing. (As for as I know coffee review does not have Shing's beautiful invention so the espresso was pulled in a more traditional way?)


Seriously, the argument of not getting the machine "right" is very hard to accept for a person who claimed to be experienced in drinking coffee; he even asked me to read his blog to learn about coffee so that's as strong as it can be for his recognition of his coffee knowledge.

For my 'little' knowledge here, if I'm not sure about the cup and will make this serious point as if it's an accusation, I will ask for another shot or ask the barista to pull on different sets. I myself found no significant difference from cups of all sets except clearer and easier to catch the taste profile as I wrote on openrice about this particular issue. I think you will be bothered to talk to the person more about this issue as he has such a good friend like you.

boris 寫到:
On the other hand I'm not afraid to say hand drip in RH need some work - yes like he says I don't taste much terroir in the hand drip coffee either. Was it the roast, the beans itself, the method of dripping, or a combination of some/all of above? I'm not professional enough so I've told Mike himself my comment and let the professionals do their jobs. Blaming directly on the roast may not be right, but I think HK has a point regarding the coffee itself.


Look at his writing above on Rabbithole, I only see the person made a strong point of blaming the roasting. Any other point is really minor and the gist is to blame the roasting. But one can always find a pattern in a data if one looks hard enough. Whether it works well, I'm not sure.

For the terroir, you read Tom Owen's. I quote it for others to follow then. BTW, it was written in March 2004 which means people in coffee business knew this thing for so long!

引言回覆:
http://www.sweetmarias.com/WineVsCoffee.html
"Unlike wine, strict geographical standards would not work well with coffee. Coffee is too dependent upon altitude, microregional soil variations, climactic subregions, local soil differences. A coffee can be grown in the geographical center of Tarrazu and have no "typical Tarrazu character", another can be grown just outside Tarrazu, and be the epitome of the region. Or a coffee can be grown on the perfect plot in Tarrazu, but is planted with Catimor (a highly productive hybrid that is actually an arabica-robusta cross) and have poor cup character."
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boris



註冊時間: 2007-04-10
文章: 154

發表發表於: 星期二 六月 05, 2012 2:39 am    文章主題: 引言回覆

Like I said, I always has coffee debate with him. This roasting matter is one that I don't totally agree or not sure + I'm not him so I can't speak for him. and I'll just leave it there..

Yet I'd like share my opinion about Tom Owen's paragraph. My understanding is, Tom doesn't against the influence of terroir on coffee, in fact, he states that climate and soil greatly affect the favour of coffee and it's exactly terroir. If the soil condition and micro climate of a certain area is special enough, the favour of the coffee planted in that area can be very different from those planted in the surrounding area, and that's the idea of microlots that's so hip now.

So remember I wrote in a facebook comment - it just depends on scale and how specific you want? Long time ago we define coffee taste by country, that's totally fine then because at those time coffee of the same country or area are mixed together done with same process, the result? the spikes (best and worst coffee) are averaged out. then we moved to estate coffee, now single variety microlot of a certain small area... spikes get larger and larger, flavors gets more special.. shit where am i? yes my point is microlot can taste very differently from the the traditional country taste but it's still their own terroir taste. If we mix all the individual coffee lots of the same country, we will get a very standard country taste. both exists, both are influenced by terroir, its just the scale..
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alexfan



註冊時間: 2008-09-18
文章: 266

發表發表於: 星期三 六月 06, 2012 6:14 am    文章主題: 引言回覆

Looking from another perspective, these new coffee places are targeted to different segments of the market, whether we like it or not is based on whether they meet our expectation. The issue is that majority of customers may not be able to differential their targeted segment.
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boris



註冊時間: 2007-04-10
文章: 154

發表發表於: 星期四 六月 07, 2012 2:26 am    文章主題: 引言回覆

Totally agree with Alex regarding market segment.

But then that doesn't explain anything at all.

First question, is HKE's claim "Some of their Single Origin estate beans are not that representative and loyal to their Farms and Terroir as yet in the taste even when using their best grinder on sight and Synesso machine, or via the Siphon." or mine ("I don't taste much terroir in the hand drip coffee either") vaild or argeed?


If they were not or are not anymore then there's nothing much to argue.

Otherwise, is there a market segment that want a cup of generic single origle X coffee that doesnt taste much like X? There certainly is, but is that what RH wanted to do? I don't think so.. (or it is? and i have misunderstood for so long?) so whats the problem? bean, roast, or brewing skill/parameter? Now I understand why HKE suggest the problem lies in the roast, because according to the blog, "One of the most interesting bits of wisdom I got from Mike was that beans and roasting makes up for 90% of how good a coffee is, and the barista's job is simply to do his/her best to bring that out - ie. 10%." I'm less certain on the percentage though - I think every part from planting to brewing are important.

This could be the last time I openly talk about any coffee shops in HK la. After this discussion I feel I owe Mike and his team a lot... but I needed to make some point, luckily Mike is understanding.. Wink
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boris 在 星期四 六月 07, 2012 11:29 am 作了第 1 次修改
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bib



註冊時間: 2007-04-21
文章: 786

發表發表於: 星期四 六月 07, 2012 4:41 am    文章主題: 引言回覆

interesting post, been both of the places having their cups.

RH, KB, there are 2 different places and ways to go for coffee.

I am not sure it is fair to compare a specialty coffee place to a commercial one + a roaster behind.

I do not give any comment and never do it for them,
it is not fair for both shops.

I only want to share something / some people I have seen in coffee shops. you do find also no answer from this:
There is a specialty shop, someone arrived and asked for a less sour/acid coffee, end up this customer wants a latte only from the beginning. *this person pretended he knows much about coffee ? I am not sure, but why don't pick something on the menu straight ?

I have no idea why compare a serious cupping score of a roaster to a retail store which Anfim + Synesso with same beans ?
bicycle to a BMW ? I am saying the cupping method.
may be we should make ourselves clear to a serious cupping ??
and espresso cupping before put those together ... ?

I need to make this very clear that I prefer hand drip than others.
So, it is extremely difficult to compare RH and KB.

no conclusion at all , but only want to mention it is an unfair comparison.
relationship is another story; pick the right point !!

THX
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alexfan



註冊時間: 2008-09-18
文章: 266

發表發表於: 星期四 六月 07, 2012 6:51 am    文章主題: 引言回覆

boris 寫到:
I think this could be the last time I openly talk about any coffee shops in HK la. After this discussion I feel I owe Mike and his team a lot... but I needed to make some point, luckily Mike is understanding.. Wink


Boris, you, Bob, HKE and other bloggers who express their view openly even brutally can help these shops to improve.
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boris



註冊時間: 2007-04-10
文章: 154

發表發表於: 星期四 六月 07, 2012 1:26 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

alexfan 寫到:
boris 寫到:
I think this could be the last time I openly talk about any coffee shops in HK la. After this discussion I feel I owe Mike and his team a lot... but I needed to make some point, luckily Mike is understanding.. Wink


Boris, you, Bob, HKE and other bloggers who express their view openly even brutally can help these shops to improve.


what am I to judge, really? i think even trying to be objective is being subjective.. I don't want my picky, over subjective but psuedo objective approach reviews affects any of the shops. I can feel that hk coffee people loves coffee genuinely most of them take coffee as passion. it's so sad to imagine any of them affected by any negative words. however saying yes yes yes good good good isn't my style, and there are too many schools and 流派 in coffee.. some ppl are not open minded and just believe in one school. if i know the boss or the staff is open minded I'll tell them what i think. I think it's works better. ymmv.
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bib



註冊時間: 2007-04-21
文章: 786

發表發表於: 星期四 六月 07, 2012 9:48 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

different product to different customers.
same to coffee.
As I try NOT to have any coffee drink in *Bucks.
There are still million people enjoying their cups there.
Some shops selling environment or atmosphere.
Some selling really good coffee.
Who love/s where , whom has their preference.
tongue/s have no standard, but cupping has.
So, espresso tools vs serious cupping NOT the thing to commend or judge.
I think fuel espresso is best chain, people think *bucks is best.
so the worst point does too.
I think best and fairest way for people VOTE here in the coming future !!
best and worst cafe are not here above, so , nothing should be discuss about such good bad.... etc etc.

how many people really know how to enjoy coe ? there are zillion still playing n talking about latte art including myself.
happy to share. Laughing Laughing

***Last night, one of best Baristas in HK - J discovered me.
scare people with different need/s of coffee beat me... Laughing Laughing
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