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espersso or ristretto

 
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SimonCHAN



註冊時間: 2008-05-31
文章: 270
來自: HKSAR

發表發表於: 星期六 三月 28, 2009 7:13 am    文章主題: 引言回覆



這個清楚。單量液體重量,不受氣泡量影响,所以較準。

SimonCHAN
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Dicky



註冊時間: 2009-01-18
文章: 232

發表發表於: 星期二 四月 14, 2009 2:06 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

今日我用磅去試…
4020無壓filter
13g粉,出30ml,杯咖啡重13g,brewing ratio = 100%
原來一直整既係ristretto而唔係espresso?!
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vodkangump



註冊時間: 2008-05-14
文章: 287

發表發表於: 星期四 四月 16, 2009 4:16 am    文章主題: 引言回覆

Dicky 寫到:
今日我用磅去試…
4020無壓filter
13g粉,出30ml,杯咖啡重13g,brewing ratio = 100%
原來一直整既係ristretto而唔係espresso?!


30ml includes creama?
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Dicky



註冊時間: 2009-01-18
文章: 232

發表發表於: 星期四 四月 16, 2009 10:24 am    文章主題: 引言回覆

yes
可能30ml多少少,個量杯好難睇得準
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vodkangump



註冊時間: 2008-05-14
文章: 287

發表發表於: 星期四 四月 16, 2009 12:45 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

Dicky 寫到:
yes
可能30ml多少少,個量杯好難睇得準


Just for sharing.

I asked a similar question before and I found no exact answer up to now.

The top rule you said, as I was told, was set out by classic Italians, but there are quite a number of modern coffee addicts don't agree with this (from what I read and observed in the internet). And usually most of them advocate up-dosing.

My current findings is: An espresso is the perfect extraction (of espresso method) of a particular coffee bean of particular roast. Under a constant tamp, there exists one combination of optimal grind size and weight for one setting i.e. a particular grinder and particular espresso machine with a particular basket, temp, pressure. Consequently, different settings may result different volumes.

What is the perfect extraction? the full extraction of the desirable flavour of the bean, theoretically (and thus subject to one's taste). How to determine the perfect extraction? varies. I feel the current most agreed and observable judge: stop the flow when it turns blond/watery within a reasonable time (mostly refers 25-35sec).

This is my humble opinion and others may provide other sayings, and again, following my starting point, probably this is no exact answer.
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SimonCHAN



註冊時間: 2008-05-31
文章: 270
來自: HKSAR

發表發表於: 星期四 四月 16, 2009 2:10 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

vodkangump 寫到:
My current findings is: An espresso is the perfect extraction (of espresso method) of a particular coffee bean of particular roast. Under a constant tamp, there exists one combination of optimal grind size and weight for one setting i.e. a particular grinder and particular espresso machine with a particular basket, temp, pressure. Consequently, different settings may result different volumes.

What is the perfect extraction? the full extraction of the desirable flavour of the bean, theoretically (and thus subject to one's taste). How to determine the perfect extraction? varies. I feel the current most agreed and observable judge: stop the flow when it turns blond/watery within a reasonable time (mostly refers 25-35sec).


I am afraid I could hardly agree with your concept. I would say ristretto is the better part of an espresso extraction (of espresso method).
In fact, these terms are just terminology for a particular brewing method/ratio.
I don't think any one is superior to another one but everyone may have their own favourite.
Just my 2 cents.

SimonCHAN
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Dicky



註冊時間: 2009-01-18
文章: 232

發表發表於: 星期四 四月 16, 2009 2:14 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

點先叫espresso可能無絕對的標準,我反而有個single同double的困惑:用single filter 7g可以沖30ml espresso,用double filter 14g都係沖30ml;但我見有double係60ml的,如果個流量係25-30秒出30ml,60ml係點沖出來?
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vodkangump



註冊時間: 2008-05-14
文章: 287

發表發表於: 星期四 四月 16, 2009 5:47 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

SimonCHAN 寫到:
vodkangump 寫到:
My current findings is: An espresso is the perfect extraction (of espresso method) of a particular coffee bean of particular roast. Under a constant tamp, there exists one combination of optimal grind size and weight for one setting i.e. a particular grinder and particular espresso machine with a particular basket, temp, pressure. Consequently, different settings may result different volumes.


What is the perfect extraction? the full extraction of the desirable flavour of the bean, theoretically (and thus subject to one's taste). How to determine the perfect extraction? varies. I feel the current most agreed and observable judge: stop the flow when it turns blond/watery within a reasonable time (mostly refers 25-35sec).


I am afraid I could hardly agree with your concept. I would say ristretto is the better part of an espresso extraction (of espresso method).
In fact, these terms are just terminology for a particular brewing method/ratio.
I don't think any one is superior to another one but everyone may have their own favourite.
Just my 2 cents.

SimonCHAN


Simon C Hing,

I didn't try to distinguish ristretto and espresso, this is sort of terminology, as you said. I am trying to say, from my observations, there is a belief that a prefect extraction for each particular setting exists. This makes sense as many people advocate fix the tamp and dose volume first, adjust grind size and then fine-tune the dose volume to approach the best extraction (I like to use 'best' here instead of 'prefect' since prefect is barely attainable). And that is why some CHings advised using 13g for double basket of Krup 4020 and certain grind setting of 600N to extract about 30ml coffee liquid since they found this is the best extraction. This extraction is more generically currently called espresso regardless the extracted volume, and the focus is to get the best extraction rather that to define it as ristretto or else. Similarly, if you taste the 'ristretto' is the "better part" of your 'espresso', thus logically you would keep on extracting the same "better part" from your espresso machine and would you say your machine as 'ristretto' machine? (jokking)

This is only trying to share my view on the puzzle of the previous posts, and not arguing the term definition.
If I have misconception, thanks for further correction.

Just my 2 cents
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vodkangump



註冊時間: 2008-05-14
文章: 287

發表發表於: 星期五 四月 17, 2009 2:38 am    文章主題: 引言回覆

Dicky 寫到:
點先叫espresso可能無絕對的標準,我反而有個single同double的困惑:用single filter 7g可以沖30ml espresso,用double filter 14g都係沖30ml;但我見有double係60ml的,如果個流量係25-30秒出30ml,60ml係點沖出來?


In my humble opinion,

1. Currently there are very few people advocate using single filter, more commonly using double or even triple filter.
2. Is the taste of 30ml shot from single filter equal to 30ml from double filter? if yes, you will stick on single filter, cost effective; if no and if you like to have a better taste, you will stick on double filter.
3. Is the taste of 60ml shot of double filter equal to 30ml from same double filter? (A simple logic is that 60ml is obtainable by increasing the average flow rate to 2ml/sec or exaggeratedly lengthening the extraction time (60sec), by changing the grind/volume/tamp etc and etc.) Again, if yes, stick on 60ml, cost effective; if no and if you like to have a better taste, you will stick on 30ml.
4. Up to that point, you find 30ml /double filter of your machine/setting/bean is the best desirable extraction (to your taste) as far as you can. And for other machine/setting/bean you may find 45ml/double filter and so on. And, IMO, it is less meaningful whether it is a ristretto or single espresso or double espresso.
5. I think many CHings here shared their valuable experience on particular setting (say, 13g/20-30ml/krup4020/600N…) is trying to give the hint and shortcut to the latecomers. That is why I think there is no, or not necessary to have, an exact answer, as we pursue the perfect extraction, not definition. "好飲就得啦".

Just my 2 cents.
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pillowpaky



註冊時間: 2007-11-24
文章: 696

發表發表於: 星期五 四月 17, 2009 9:06 am    文章主題: 引言回覆

普遍認為
咖啡豆 存在"7成"好的東西(香味、果香...) "3成"唔好的東西(咖啡因、苦澀味等)

而我認為Perfect Shot套用在所有 沖煮方式都一樣意思
就是 把最好的部份 盡可能沖煮出來,而不好的部份就想辦法令它們沖"不"出來

這兩點,亦引伸到,
為何磨豆機最好做到"超級平均,不發熱"
而Espresso Machine就做到 水溫要非常準確(整個沖煮過程同一溫度)
因為這樣才有機會做到上面提及2 Perfect Shot的重點(當然是我的小小見解)

遲些再討論多一點這個部份
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http://pillowpaky.blogspot.com/
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Dicky



註冊時間: 2009-01-18
文章: 232

發表發表於: 星期五 四月 17, 2009 3:00 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

或者我試下咁問…ristretto/espresso/double espresso會唔會係本身風味各有特色所以先有咁既分類呢?同一種豆同一部機應該都沖到以上三款咖啡,我諗三者的比較唔係好與壞,而係風格唔同(好似cappu vs latte),會唔會可以咁樣分辨到ristretto/espresso同埋點沖煮?
很想搞清楚d基本概念…
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