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Hario V60 brewing method recommended by Mark Prince

 
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boblam
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註冊時間: 2007-05-04
文章: 294

發表發表於: 星期六 五月 22, 2010 5:51 pm    文章主題: Hario V60 brewing method recommended by Mark Prince 引言回覆

http://vimeo.com/11537624
Video of Chris Owens, of Intelligentsia and formerly at Ritual and Counter Culture, on V60 drip brew which Mark Prince indicated "one of the better ones he has seen"

Some notes/questions

1. The pour concentrated in the middle only vs. Landy "Spiral" pour. This implies the coffee ground on the side was under extracted while the middle one relatively over extracted.

2. Owens' pour allowed the ground to rose high on the side while Landy's quite low and concentrated. Again, relatively under extracted in on the side?

3. Very short extraction time if you look at the stop clock (less than two minutes), coupling with the stress of middle pour, is this a good way?

4. The one thing I like more about Owens' is the water temperature. You see 211F from the hot water machine when he poured water into the Hario Buono Kettle.

5. Blooming: Landy only poured in the middle and I can only see the bloom came from the center part vs. Owens' bloom which seemed to be all over. I seemed to subscribe to all over bloom by Owens' more

6. Videowise, Owens' is much better, ie shooting, music.. but that's secondary though I hope hkcoffee could improve on this front.

Below is Landy's take on Hario V60 which seemed to distribute water more evenly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64olFoBiw7I

Please feel free to comment/contrast...

Bob
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tnpatton



註冊時間: 2010-03-26
文章: 25

發表發表於: 星期日 六月 27, 2010 4:00 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

Excellent post, bob. I have spent the past year experimenting only with the V60, two times a day. I've tried all the methods shown on the internet but have mostly stuck with Landy's method (modifying it slightly).

In response to your points:

1) concentrating in the middle definitely results in over-extraction while leaving the outer layer under-extracted. Whenever I've done this, the resulting brew was always too bitter.

2) Are you saying that Landy's low and concentrated method results in under-extraction of the sides?

3) I've experimented with many different extraction times, and I would have allowed at least 3 minutes for Owens' brew. My extraction time for 200ml water/ 15g coffee is about 2:15.

4) Using Owens' water temperature usually leaves a burnt taste to my coffee. Per Landy, I use the following guideline:

after roasting 1-3 days - 80 degrees
after roasting 4-6 dakys - 82 degrees
after roasting 7-10 days - 85 degrees

(full city only)
but also depends on which coffee beans.

5) I'm still uncertain as to how bloom affects my brewing.

I would love your feedback on my technique shown here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz-WJ8_b5Ko

I brewed some coffee for Landy and Shing yesterday using this technique, and they said there was some bitter aftertastes most likely due to using too much coffee and too long of a brew time.

Thanks!
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boblam
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註冊時間: 2007-05-04
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發表發表於: 星期日 六月 27, 2010 9:07 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

Thanks for your kind words but the honor should go to you on your great and detail post on coffeegeek.com on this same topic... I'm not coffeegeek.com member so I like to take this place to thank you for that post.

I think it's quite difficult for westerner to via off course from the 200+/-5F for the cup. Plus the updosing of close to 50% by Landy's may deter lots from doing this.

Since my early post, I attended Landy's filter coffee class and somewhat convert on the temp side though I still sometimes brew myself 200+/-5F for the body.

While Landy's brew did cover most of the ground in the V60 cone, in that class, the one that closed to the side remained relatively underextracted just from the look which is similar to what I saw you did on your youtube video. Nevertheless, the cup quality was quite good for Landy's so I guess whatever work is fine but it left me curious whether a more well distributed pouring will make an even more flavorful cup.

Also, the blooming thing. Since the old days, most will suggest wait for a while for the bloom to subside as they want all the ground, even those that were suspended in the air by the bloom, come down, IMHO. Whether that's relevant to "pre infusion" for 30 second to get rid of the bloom is quite an interesting point though my thinking is that it matters less when one control the speed and the level of the pour not to overflow too much so that the ground at the surface of the bloom will get hit by water anyway.

Also, the 30 second wait for blooming could have some effect on temperature, particularly with a small volume like 1-2 cup brewing and the drip brew which was relatively notorious for temperature inconsistency.

That's my 2 cents and in all your video showed a very good job for V60 brewing.
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tnpatton



註冊時間: 2010-03-26
文章: 25

發表發表於: 星期一 六月 28, 2010 6:24 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

It's great to be able to discuss these things with another pour-over enthusiast here in HK! You were actually the person who got me started on my coffee adventures here in HK. When I first began coming to HK about a year ago, I posted a question on Geoexpat asking where good places are to buy beans. You told me about Fresh Coffee, and after trying several other places on the island, I keep coming back to them.

You are right about updosing. Because I like the smooth body of coffee brewed at low temps, I tried updosing by 50% but had to stop because the strength of the coffee caused pain to my gums and teeth. I still updose a bit according to taste but not as much as Landy suggests.

I didn't know Landy offered a filter coffee course. Is this that course offered at Quarry Bay taught by Nelvin? I usually just go over to their shop in North Point and ask for demonstrations in return for sweeping their floor or cleaning up a shelf. Smile

Have you tried syphon brewing or "nel drip" brewing? Shing is trying to get me to try brewing with them. They both look like good ways to brew coffee, and some guys I know over at barismo.com brew only with the v60, syphon or nel drip.

Shing just showed me some of your great coffee reviews on openrice.com. I will definitely check out the places you recommend.
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neohk



註冊時間: 2006-09-03
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發表發表於: 星期一 六月 28, 2010 9:07 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

regarding pt 2,3 and 4, the latest idea that landy demonstrated empirically is that "all parameters being relatively only". Well, that's basically about physics of coffee extraction process and I find that statement quite accurate.
For example it's okay to use a short brewing time with a higher temp. or finer ground. Of course the idea seems not applicable to extreme conditions such as very high temp. and very short brewing time. It is not the case.
Two more things that we should bear in mind are that
1) errors exist(eg:uneven grind)
2)the relative duration of initial soaking of coffee ground (ie. uneven extraction) and the total brewing time.

These two factors interfere with the final results in our cups and therefore sometimes it seems that short brewing time tends to be undesirable. However the existence of good espresso proved otherwise.
With these ideas in mind, what's left is trail and error. Finding the method that suits you best and stick with it. Laughing



p.s: i forgot to mention landy's test. she used her espresso machines and use the pre-infusion function of synesso machine in 2/3 of the extraction process and she could make quite a decent and rich cup.
_________________
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boblam
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註冊時間: 2007-05-04
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發表發表於: 星期一 六月 28, 2010 11:40 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

@tnpatton...

Haha, I'm the one who got you 'addicted' to landy... Very Happy

Anyway, believe in what Shing said but not what I said or wrote on openrice.com too much. Nothing is set in stone and I was told on one of the webboards "I knew nothing on what I said" before so that's the disclaimer.... Very Happy

Please feel free to read over there and, even better, try the shop and compare and contrast the notes both with me and others. You find even more people over there that talk coffee.

@neohk... Good comment!
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tnpatton



註冊時間: 2010-03-26
文章: 25

發表發表於: 星期二 七月 13, 2010 9:00 am    文章主題: another V60 video 引言回覆

Hi bob,

have you seen this video yet?
http://vimeo.com/11850574

i still think they leave too much of a coffee "wall" around the edge of the cone. these guys also tend to updose their brews perhaps in an attempt to make up for the coffee along the edge of the cone that is not extracted?
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boblam
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註冊時間: 2007-05-04
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發表發表於: 星期二 七月 13, 2010 9:13 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

@tnpatton, I agree with you on the wall, IMHO, that's a waste + unnecessarily emphasizing over/under extraction in the cup. Nevertheless, I like to taste that cup to see whether my thinking is right as we just have a look on it.
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boblam
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註冊時間: 2007-05-04
文章: 294

發表發表於: 星期三 七月 14, 2010 11:30 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

http://www.youtube.com/user/sweetmarias#p/u/0/r6OdG39pfTU

Tom Owen's take on V60, probably the least sophisticated of all.

Point I like is at 4min he indicated that most told him not to pour to the filter, thus lots of people avoid pouring over the side of the cone, left coffee over there underextract, IMHO.

However, Tom did show toward the end that he poured much closer, probably the closest one to the rim, IIRC.

The coffee volume seemed to be a bit too much but it seemed to cover most of the coffee ground.

Take a look and I'm not sure it helps. Comment/contrast are welcome.
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tnpatton



註冊時間: 2010-03-26
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發表發表於: 星期四 七月 15, 2010 2:55 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

hi bob,
i'll check out that video this evening. i think i've seen it before. Tom at Maria's isn't a big fan of the V60. Neither is Nick Cho as seen in this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEjx3y9mUwM&feature=youtu.be

I am going to Taipei next week. Do you have any recommendations for coffee places?
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boblam
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註冊時間: 2007-05-04
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發表發表於: 星期四 七月 15, 2010 8:56 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

tnpatton 寫到:
hi bob,
Tom at Maria's isn't a big fan of the V60.

Hmm.. Thats the old video and the reason I post as he seemed to support the V60 type thing.

tnpatton 寫到:
Neither is Nick Cho as seen in this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEjx3y9mUwM&feature=youtu.be

Interesting for your thought. I think Nick Cho is a defender of the pricing of Hario Buono Kettle which should imply he's a supporter of V60 too or I miss something here.
http://www.coffeed.com/viewtopic.php?p=30597#p30597

BTW, have you tried Okada Coffee at Woodhouse (Chung King Mansion) in TST?
http://www.openrice.com/restaurant/sr2.htm?shopid=36498

They seemed to use pour over Japanese style but hot air roaster.. So, if you sit by the counter, you might see some technique. A while ago, there's a Japanese guy doing the brew but not sure by now.

Somehow, the coffee is quite interesting, soft, nice with some hint but not very outstanding, kinda mesmerizing in its own way very expensive cup though and they seem to use lower temp brewing.

I also had Kitamura san brewing coffee for me twice. Lots of paper taste and darker roast bean though but its another way to get the technique

www.kitamuracoffee.com

Yes, Landy will give the look to me next time I drop by as I post the link.. Very Happy

But, seriously, its different market. Kitamura sans roast was quite dark.

tnpatton 寫到:
I am going to Taipei next week. Do you have any recommendations for coffee places?


I only visited Trilobite in Taipei a year ago and liked it. Love its Synesso with 12 Super Jolly for choices of twelve espresso blends Let me know how it goes as I havent been there for a long while.

http://freshcoffeentea.no-ip.info/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2689&highlight=taipei

Also, some mentioned Mojo Coffee and Orsir but both are in Tai Chung.
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tnpatton



註冊時間: 2010-03-26
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發表發表於: 星期五 七月 16, 2010 7:06 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

Excellent. Thank you, Bob, for this useful information. You are right about Tom at Sweet Maria's. He has come to like the V60 (I was in email contact with him when he posted the first video urging him to keep practicing with the V60).

Nick Cho used to use the V60 at his shop but recently switched to the Abid/Clever because it was easier to teach his staff how to brew coffee with it. It is much more consistent than the V60. I bought the Abid/Clever from Landy last week. I'm not really sure I like it. The brew reminds me of what I get when I brew coffee with an Aeropress: oily, flat, and difficult to taste the coffee's full profile. I'll try it for another week before going back to V60.

I decided to buy a syphon and will begin using it next month. I am going to study different ways of brewing with a syphon before starting. I brewed 3 syphons last week at Landy's, and I really enjoyed it. I spoke with William at Barista Jam about syphon, and he told me that there are just too many variables involved in syphon brewing to make it enjoyable for him. He let's Dixon handle the syphon stuff.

I know what you mean by Landy's "look"
Very Happy

Shing and I always laugh about it.
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boblam
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註冊時間: 2007-05-04
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發表發表於: 星期五 七月 16, 2010 11:05 pm    文章主題: 引言回覆

You're welcome!
tnpatton 寫到:
He has come to like the V60 (I was in email contact with him when he posted the first video urging him to keep practicing with the V60).

Wow! that sounds great... The power of consumer in the US is really strong!!! Very Happy
引言回覆:
Nick Cho used to use the V60 at his shop but recently switched to the Abid/Clever because it was easier to teach his staff how to brew coffee with it. It is much more consistent than the V60.

I thought Nick Cho closed/dissociated with coffee shop and only have an online shop/roaster for now... Maybe there's changes. BTW, I haven't been to his shop before, always couples of hours away from his area so don't know how it tastes like... Is it good there when you try it.

For CCD, ask Nelf to show you how to brew as he has a special way that tastes surprisingly good among all the filter brew I had in that class. I like it much more than his Vac Pot brew in that class but that's just me... My taste bud is not quite reliable I couldn't taste anythings from a latte today so don't fully trust me. But since you have the CCD, might as well use it to its full potential before you leave it.
引言回覆:
I know what you mean by Landy's "look"
Very Happy

Shing and I always laugh about it.

Lucky we wrote in English.. Not that she doesn't understand but she said she always fell asleep reading long English... That's the trick... Very Happy
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